Technique for steep crud?

[epic]

Well, this is a surprising turn.

[Liam]

I think you're deluding yourself if you think the community has no role in this.  It can be gracious and grateful for the pro bono assistance of its better-educated and more experienced members, or it can be obnoxious and make their lives less pleasant.  Would you keep answering questions about First Aid or running sleds if I, knowing very little about either topic, argued with you every time you did it?

There are technique discussions that don't involve MA.  If somebody asks a "How should I.." question, they're asking about technique/tactics/etc, which falls into categories best-answered by people who know what they're talking about, and gingerly treated by those who don't.  It's important to note that this is always relative.  In some unfortunate crews, I'm the most knowledgeable.  In other, luckier ones, far from it.  How and whether I answer such a question or defer to others depends on the company.

Maybe they're interested in the ideas of multiple experienced people.

Dude, I like you, but have you completely lost the plot?  First, it shouldn't require somebody with the credentials of a Daron Rahlves or JP Auclair for you to respectfully listen.  There are plenty of guys way worse than they are and way better than you who deserve respect for their skills.  Dialectic might be the real joy for you, but plenty of others get pissed off by it when it's initiated by a relatively uneducated source, and are only willing to put up with it for so long.  They don't have the time, interest, or energy to engage in dialectic with every unqualified forum poster on the internet.  By continuing to harangue them, you encourage them to stop contributing their time and expertise, and all of us lose.  Would you please think it over from their perspective?

Dan,

I don't think I was being disrespectful.  And frankly, depending on the technique in question, I'm more than comfortable and qualified to make a suggestion as are the PLURALITY of posters on this site (like I said, we're not discussing studying someones turn mechanics and breaking them down movement by movement).  I wouldn't (nor did I) give advice or corrections to Heluva or any one of the Dan Boisvert approved expert commentators.  I didn't drive him away, I merely remained convinced there is a place for hop turns in the terrain in questions and I didn't buckle as he threatened to 'expose and humiliate me.'...or something like that.  Honestly, reading through the nature of the posts, you'd think it was me who was being driven away (and yet, here I am).  I don't think anyone doubts Greg's experthood or skilled skiing analysis abilities because we disagreed (sort of disagreed, I might add) over hop turns.

What is more, looking at the specific advice given and solicited: recommending that an intermediate venturing out onto truly steep and cruddy runs ought to have a familiarity with some form of a useful hop turn is very much in accord with what many EXPERTS advise.  I didn't come up with that on my own, It was taught to me by far stronger and more experienced skiers when I had the same questions.  It is condoned and taught by expert skiers from Deslaurier to Lito to Josh Foster and Section 8 Tobin, to CSIA, PSIA...in fact, it is only the Dan Boisvert approved experts who got their panties in a bind over it being recommended.  (Even Bushwacker, who I'm happy to see got a nod in the Dan Boisvert round-up of those who may speak in this forum wrote to me, he's been reading this thread and says depending on the pitch, width, and surface conditions of the run in question, hop turns are/ and will be used by experts as well...along with active rotary, of course).

So who's arguing with the experts??  Plus, I never said Heluva/ GeoffDa's way was wrong.  Never.   I merely stated that a grasp on hop turns might be advantageous to an intermediate in steeps.  I even conceded that as they gain more true expert skills, the hop turn becomes less and less a necessary or desirable option.  Fair Enough?

Dan, for you who just 'likes to learn' from the experts, well what's preventing you?  A recommendation from one skier to another to consider hop turns (and a bullet proof side slip...even more important and useful than a hop turn)??  You're a player on the PMTS forum, don't you get your fill of the bonafide experts there??

Also, where was all this impassioned defense of listening to the experts when Bushwacker was the one on the chopping block?  Problem was, he ain't really your kind of expert.

Speaking of, Bush asked me to post this video of his crew (he is skiing with the POV camera) skiing a very narrow and steep backside chute in Northern, VT (check out the avalanching snow, gives a good perspective of how steep this pinch zone is:)



It's a good video of one of the known experts on this site (formerly, unfortunately) skiing the terrain we've been discussing in this thread.  Josh say he'll have video of him skiing this (not POV) up soon as well.

Now, these guys are better skiers than I, and they ski this way faster than I'd ever be comfortable skiing it.  Still, it's a real world video of steep, narrow and cruddy (well, powdery, terrain).

[midwif]

I am very disheartened by this thread. It seems we can't spend much time in neutral space together.
I thought there were valid points on both sides and the initial conversation interesting .

Maybe we should go back to focusing on ski gear reviews/opinions and leave out the neutral zone!

It seems difficult for many to have a passionate conversation without it becoming personal.

Lynn

[GreenTrails]

Seems to me, as a curious observer, that some people can't stand discourse where anything off a single advancement track is advocated as useful to the aspiring skier.  Pretty funny the universality with which some advocates make others opinions unwelcome resulting in banning of great skiers or entire topics from discussion forums.  I, for one, usually skip the "T" whenever referencing certain 4 letter teaching methodology acronym.

I'm out of here until there is some sort of agreement that expertise isn't restricted to any one style of feeling the interface between frozen crystals and the human figure.

[midwif]

Green Trails

Sorry to see you go.
I don't think you are ever going to see that agreement on an open forum.

And just to be clear; no one has been banned for espousing their methodology.
The only banning that has ever occurred here was in response to a nasty thread started ;whose only intention
was to denigrate another.

Everyone needs a big storm and to just go skiing, damn it.

[ToddW]

To those who are taking a break for a while,

Consider dropping by once Spring starts.  The focus is more on bicycling and green things than on snow.

[ToddW]

Here are 4 skiers who are dedicated to self-improvement trying to hop after a fashion.  [they are local instructors in a clinic at a respectable resort in the PNW]

Now imagine them trying to hop ... and turn farther across the fall line ... on 45 degree refrozen crud, the conditions the OP initially mentioned.  Conditions where a single bungled hop could be the prelude to injury or to an adrenaline junkie's plunge spinning down the mountain.  How good a safety net is the hop turn for them?

I mean no disrespect to these 4 instructors.  I post this instead to suggest that skiers who expect to rely on some flavor of hop turns in dangerous terrain might do well to crank up their self-preservation instinct a couple notches and consider skiing elsewhere.  Not all of us have the skills (or desire) to safely ski extreme terrain.  Me for one.  Call me a coward, but I wouldn't knowingly start down a 45 degree piste with nasty crud.  We humans should be wary of illusory competence's siren call. 

I chose their video to post because a member of the clinic group posted other clinic video shot in the same month on the Vail forum today asking explicitly for MA.  [If you feel the urge to do MA, please do it on the other forum.]

[LivingProof]

Mine might be an unpopular opinion, but I think we screw over the community as a whole when we drive away those who have much to offer it.  This is a ski forum.  I'm not an equal contributor to Max_501, HeluvaSkier, epic, bushwacka, etc.  My contributions are worth approximately nothing in comparison with theirs, because about all I have to offer is conjecture and the subjective opinion of a hack skier.  These folks have significant experience from which we can all benefit, irrespective of which approach(es) we follow with regard to instruction.

Dan,

First, who is the "we" who drive away those who have much to offer? The roots of most of the subtle (and no so subtle) taunting of others is derived from old issues from other forums. The battle lines and players on both sides are well known, this forum just gave them a new field to fight in.

Second, my read is that you are implying some members are more worthy than others, and, I strongly disagree. Don't believe there is a significant few and the trivial many. OK, some post with elan far greater than mine and far more interesting to follow. This forum was never intended to be the equivalent of the PMTS forum or the Epic Instruction forum, as evidenced by the lack of a specific forum. It's much more about the everyday skier, their experiences and opinions, and, perhaps most of all it was intended to capture some of the joy of skiing we all experience. Like you, I'm pleased to have access to some very knowledgeable people, I'm also selective regarding what I accept as meaningful. You are on equal footing with all who post here, although, some may be better skiers. Behavioral standards apply to all.

If you want access to Max, Helluva, High Angles or JB, you know, very well, where to find them, and, in a forum intended to dwell down into the technical aspects.

[dan.boisvert]

Liam,

As I think I've made clear, there are experts who've chosen various paths to get to where they are, and I'm not making judgment calls on whose path is any better than anybody else's; the only person I get to choose for is myself.  My precise point was that neither you nor I are in any position to argue technique with people whose abilities are so far beyond our own and that, by doing so, we insult them and waste their time.  I mentioned 4 individuals by name who seem to be solidly above the rest of us in knowledge and experience, and should be easily recognizable as such.  Only half of them are PMTS guys.  I appreciate your attempt at casting me as a PMTS zealot as an argumentative tactic, but it's hardly an accurate characterization.

Honestly, reading through the nature of the posts, you'd think it was me who was being driven away (and yet, here I am).

Odd, that.  The guy who says the primary purpose of internet discussion fora is to argue with people who know more than he does sticks around for another argument.  I'm shocked.  In case you hadn't noticed, 3 of the 4 guys I mentioned as being particularly knowledgeable no longer post here.  I'm going to guess they're not as interested in the dialectic as you are, given that the stuff that got Josh banned was him losing his cool over said dialectic.

I don't think anyone doubts Greg's experthood or skilled skiing analysis abilities because we disagreed (sort of disagreed, I might add) over hop turns.

Hey, we agree on something.  I don't think your comments diminish Greg's credibility at all.


You can quote any expert you want to make just about any point you want.  The point is that you're in no position to make the criticism.  Let the experts argue amongst themselves, and we can all learn something from their interactions.  You arguing by cut & paste accomplishes nothing useful, because much subtlety and perspective is lost.  The simple fact remains that you behave in a way on the internet that you wouldn't dare in real life, because you know very well that arguing with a guy who's got 10x your skill makes you look like an idiot when everybody just saw the two of you skiing side by side.  Why pull that crap on the internet?  What good does it accomplish?

Dan, for you who just 'likes to learn' from the experts, well what's preventing you?  A recommendation from one skier to another to consider hop turns (and a bullet proof side slip...even more important and useful than a hop turn)??  You're a player on the PMTS forum, don't you get your fill of the bonafide experts there??

Maybe you didn't notice that 3 of the 4 I mentioned have stopped posting here over the past several weeks.  It's tough to learn from guys who aren't talking.  That's what I'm annoyed about, and the only reason I haven't let this go.  I'm hardly a "player" on the PMTS forum.  I've got an account and don't post much.  I've spoken elsewhere about my feelings on the heavy-handedness with which that forum is run, and I had developed a fondness for the more open communication here.  I've also got this crazy idea that, with a little work, we can end this stupid PMTS/PSIA fight and act like civil human beings to each other.

Also, where was all this impassioned defense of listening to the experts when Bushwacker was the one on the chopping block?  Problem was, he ain't really your kind of expert.

Actually, the problem was that I was far from a computer when that elapsed, and I got a summary of what happened via PM when I got back, after it had all been cleaned up by the moderation team.  Thanks for trying to pin me as being partisan, though; you did a great job forgetting about my open support for lifting Josh's ban, both before and after skiing with him.  I'm sure Max_501 thought I was a PMTS partisan when I got on his case about holding onto old crap from Epic, as well as a variety of others at various times, as well.

You're welcome to have the last word.  I'm about done here.

[dan.boisvert]

First, who is the "we" who drive away those who have much to offer? The roots of most of the subtle (and no so subtle) taunting of others is derived from old issues from other forums. The battle lines and players on both sides are well known, this forum just gave them a new field to fight in.

I'm giving Liam credit for this one, jbotti credit for pushing Josh over the edge, and am unsure at exactly how the credit should be distributed for Max_501's departure.  I've never claimed to be very bright, but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that old battles must continue in every new field that opens.

Second, my read is that you are implying some members are more worthy than others, and, I strongly disagree.

It's not that they're more worthy in general than others; it's that they should be shown respect for their experience and knowledge.  In real life, you don't start a chairlift argument about ski technique with a guy who skis circles around you every day and twice on Sunday.  I don't think the internet should be any different in this regard.  I think everybody's valuable as a participant, of course, but let's keep things real.

This forum was never intended to be the equivalent of the PMTS forum or the Epic Instruction forum, as evidenced by the lack of a specific forum. It's much more about the everyday skier, their experiences and opinions, and, perhaps most of all it was intended to capture some of the joy of skiing we all experience. Like you, I'm pleased to have access to some very knowledgeable people, I'm also selective regarding what I accept as meaningful.

I don't see this as an instruction forum, either.  I love to see trip reports, equal social participation, and such from the everyday skier too, but I'm not terribly interested in seeing him argue ski technique with somebody far more skilled.  Sensible people usually know when not to open their mouths in real life.  Helping to keep things that way helps to ensure continued access to those very knowledgeable people.  We've lost quite a percentage of those lately, and I'm unhappy about it.

You are on equal footing with all who post here, although, some may be better skiers. Behavioral standards apply to all.

My suggestion is for behavioral standards to be loosened a touch for those who've been taunted and finally lost their cool.  It seems unfair to let the taunting go unfettered and only stomp on the response.

If you want access to Max, Helluva, High Angles or JB, you know, very well, where to find them, and, in a forum intended to dwell down into the technical aspects.

Sure I do.  They're not the only folks I'm interested in hearing from, though.

[ToddW]

Well, this is a surprising turn.

Yep.  3 out of 4 down from Dan's list.    Epic, you're the sole survivor!

[jim-ratliff]

I guess the motto of the forum should say "State your opinion respectfully, and then walk away from the conversation." 
Everyone is entitled to voice an opinion, but why do we need to defend and defy and convince others that we are "right".  Or are we concerned that the other readers aren't smart enough to understand what is being discussed.  I am absolutely convinced that our readers were able to discern the discussion points without ever letting it become so personal.  If your individual ego is so fragile that you feel the need to defend yourself here among a bunch of "strangers" then you need to find a different past-time.  As the gambler said, "you got to know when to walk away, know when to run".
 
There were plenty of points in time where multiple people, having tossed in their thoughts,  could have just walked away. 

Dan, I disagree with you.  Everyone's opinion should be welcome, because only each individual reader can determine what is applicable to him/her, and how much he is willing to invest to get to that point.  I will never be a PMTS "Expert" skier.  It is, I believe, a pretty small and exclusive group.  But I will continue with PMTS lessons and trying to learn more.  But I do absolutely enjoy hearing Gary's point of view and Epic's pont of view and Bushwacka's point of view.  Hopefully, the "group indicators" give people some sense of who is an instructor, and who is a patroller, and who is like Jim, just a hack skier.

I do understand your actual example, where all of the individuals are at different levels in the same profession.  From that point of view, if I were an aspiring ski instructor working on my Level I PSIA, I certainly wouldn't show up at testing sessions having interminable "discussions" with the Level III's that were evaluating me, trying to convince them that I knew more about skiing than they, but that isn't the environment here.  If I were trying to join ski patrol, I probably wouldn't argue with Liam about how to handle a sled no matter what color text he posted in.  But I don't think that describes the nature of the forum.  You personally gravitate to a different level of of information than Byron (for example, no slur intended to Byron).

Bottom line -- Is Helluva right, or is Liam right, or is Dan right??  It doesn't really matter as long as the opinions are out there for each reader to see.  The next mission to the moon isn't dependent on who is right and wrong.  The only thing I know is that "Jim is right" because we all perceive ourselves that way.

The co-founder of Spectrum Systems and I have been together for the past 30 years.  He passed away last week. My fourth grandchild (and first grand daughter) was born last week. THAT is life and death.  This is just social chit-chat, life to too short to take a ski forum so damn seriously that we get this upset.  We shouldn't confuse skiing with the really important things in life -- and I've got another week in Colorado in 10 days.

[Svend]

Well said Jim.  Your last paragraph is particularly pertitent to me at the moment (those who know me will understand what I mean), and that is just the kind of perspective that is in short supply here of late.  This partisan bickering and small-minded sandbox mentality is ruining this forum.  Enough already! Some people here really need to get a life.

[epic]

You know as far as the original question and it's myriad of answers, there is the whole relativity thing. I mean there are varying degrees of steep, crud, narrow and exposed and different tactics for all of them. One man's flat is another's steep, what you call crud I call powder. Today I was stemming some turns in a steep cute - on purpose. It's not like I'd have fallen all the way to the valley floor in Chamonix, but twenty feet into a birch isn't that great either and in a chalky chute that's just two meters wide, I want to play it safe. Given the chance I'll always keep my skis on the ground, and go for the Hi-C, but there's a time and place for a hop turn too. Posting a video of guys that can't do it and saying that it is not a good tactic is like posting video of a bunch of guys skidding around on a green slope and saying don't bother with carving, it's too hard.

[Svend]